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  #1  
Old 11-03-2008, 11:54 PM
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grimm grimm is offline
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Default Ninjas want better buff!

It's great that ninjas got buffed in practices. But none of it is as good as what other classes are getting. Buffs in practices have make a few classes insane.

The new buff on hakanai shouten is great. But honestly who would use it with stun >100% and a weaker counterpart to whispering wind.

I say make whispering wind antei a spellup. Or on a different prevent. That would be the first step to making us ninjas happy!
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Last edited by grimm; 03-10-2011 at 02:47 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-19-2008, 02:11 AM
Fenulia Fenulia is offline
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Unseen Motion: 1% Difficult to Hit per 10% over 100%.
Joufu's Arc: 1% more attack per 3% over 100%. Rolls over to the second attack once the first one hits 100% I think. Give it some +Dexterity at least? Even +1 per 5% over 100% might actually make a difference(in a world where other people regularly run around with +60 to single stats, or +30 each to multiple stats on single buffs).
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:51 AM
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grimm grimm is offline
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I think unseen motion increases every [6%] coz that's how i've been training.
You're right everyone's getting massive +stat bonus. What harm is it to increase our dex on joufu's arc as well.
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Last edited by grimm; 03-10-2011 at 02:47 AM.
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  #4  
Old 11-19-2008, 04:41 AM
Syveril Syveril is offline
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First, a response to the previous comments:

I believe unseen motion gives a 1% difficult to hit every 6%. I agree that joufu's arc could use some bonus to dexterity with practice %. Or better yet, simply remove the cap on dexterity.

Here's my list of the spellups that Ninjas deserve:

1. trail concealment/winded passage. basically the same buff, and it's ridiculous that we don't have it.
2. flight of any kind. marauders have it. hunters have it. it doesn't even make sense that marauders have wings of the dragon. why was it moved from ninja to marauder in the first place?
3. haste. for two reasons: first, it's weird that ninjas of all classes don't have any speed buffs. secondly, we deserve more attacks, because we're shafted so hard on damage compared to every other fighter, save footpads. Why do we also have fewer attacks than other fighter classes?

Other suggestions for improving ninjas:

1. reduce prevention time for antei of the clouded mind. this ability has a limp ratio of uptime to downtime, and basically locks you out of pk for half an hour. It should provide a higher uptime/downtime ratio, as well as be much shorter, like a 9 minute up/2 minute down deal, reaching 0 minutes down at high constitutions.

2. antei of formation needs to last longer. Since antei of formation was first implemented, player health and the length of pk battles has increased a great deal. When you also consider the introduction of glacious stones, and the more recent hit/dam bonus lost when using too much endurance, antei of formation has become stupid. I don't always use antei of formation on long boss fights, because I'd rather not break my hit/dam bonus for a few rounds of extra attacks (that don't hit as hard since I lose my bonus), even with 28600 endurance. This is a ridiculous state of affairs.

Antei of formation needs to be extended dramatically, or else its endurance cost needs to be cut dramatically, or both need to be done moderately. The current state of antei of formation is that it's questionable to even use this ability. I certainly don't land all my attacks when I use it, which is pretty crazy considering that hakanai shouten + formation take me well over 800 dexterity and 400 +hit.

3. Ninjas deserve redirect. The only two fighter classes without redirect are footpads and ninjas, not coincidentally the two fighter classes with the most withdraws (unless you count eaststar khehusods). NEWFLASH: Battle locks have been in this game for years. It's time to give redirect to footpads and ninjas.

4. Ambush sucks. It needs to either go off autonomously along the lines of critical tactics/heroines charge to help replace the loss of SM, or else it should scale better. Before players were dealing 10K damage per charge and 5K damage on storm complexity and evasion stopped ambush most of the time, ambush was a decent, if difficult to use skill. Now, the average damage dealt by ambush in pk is less than simply opening with flowering spirit.

I would say the top three ninja fixes are:
1. Trail concealment
2. Redirect
3. Haste

Last edited by Syveril; 11-19-2008 at 04:45 AM.
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  #5  
Old 11-19-2008, 05:13 AM
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grimm grimm is offline
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This is a response to Syveril's post.

Spells ninjas deserve?
1. Just because most melee classes have a skill doesn't mean all other classes need it.
Hunters don't have redirect you don't see them asking for it.
Barbs and poliirs don't have vanish you don't see them complaining. And if they were given vanish everyone would be complaining.
I believe we shouldn't be looking at what other classes have and then wanting them as well. This in fact makes class unique from one another.
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How we should view is "are our skills are on par with other melee classes' skill". Does their main damage skill has a higher advantage then our main damage skill?

Another way to review our skills are the usefulness. Do we make the best use of skills we have, or are they obsolete.

"I'm all not for adding new skills just because other classes have it. i.e trail concealment and redirect."

2. But skills that used to be ours do puzzle me as well. Skills such as unka and wings of dragon. Why were they taken away from us in the first place? .But with said i think marauders still deserve it as well. They lack in spellups.

3. Now with haste. I don't know if i'm all up for it. Very debatable. Do we really need it? I think we need to be focusing on joufu's arc instead.
We need to focus on how to make our skills be on par with other classes skills. Everyone's getting massive boost. Higher +stats bonus where else we're still stuck 5years ago.


Improving Ninjas
1. I agree with syveril on lowering the prevent time for antei of the clouded mind. It really gimps us. I see the point why they're on the same prevent - fight or hide. But with such a high prevent on clouded mind, it's hard to strategize how we want to hide or fight. If we cloak we're gonna be gimped for so long and our only reliable damage skill can't be use if we choose to use the advantage.

Or maybe we can make it in away that it keeps us cloak as long as we do not initiate attack,spellup or till the uptime finishes. Keeping in mind it still has its long prevention time and on a different prevention as antei of formation. This will give more tactics for ninja to utilize.

2.Antei of formation isn't all that great if you want to compare it to infusion(althought it's on a different skill tier). But i guess the short prevent time makes up for it. Thus we can't rely solely on antei of formation , but a marauder could on infusion. I'm not up for changing it. I think it's fine as it is. So i suggest we start focusing on other skills we have.

Which leads back to my first post (sorry for the biaseness). Helping us gain more attack power.

3.And on the ambush note. I say leave it there. It does serve it's purpose.
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Last edited by grimm; 03-10-2011 at 02:47 AM.
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  #6  
Old 11-19-2008, 06:00 AM
Fenulia Fenulia is offline
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Ambush is...mediocre. It rocks when you're a mortal(few post-level 90 moves dont). Beyond that, once hp starts getting higher than about 10k, ambush steadily loses its use. Plus all the different ways to break it(or if the wrong person comes in first to break you out of it before the intended target). Second making it a mini-auto attack. "I'm a Drow, and even though I'm a Healer, I'm well-versed in the art of sneak-bitch-slapping you for 5k damage every 20 rounds." "I'm a *insert non-ambushing race* Ninja/Footpad, and even though I've spent almost my whole life honing my sneakiness, I'm unable to stick in the art of 5k damage sneak-bitch-slap between combat rounds." Yeah. Makes no sense to me. I say make it something you can access over 100%, and say, at 250%, it's at 5% chance to kick in(1% per 30% over 100). That makes it equal to Dark Elf, just behind Naj'rei Faehr and Veldruk. If you think that's too low, maybe every 25%(6% at "natural cap" of 250). Personally, I'd cap the racials at about 5-6%(Major), while allowing you to spend 1 million plats to surpass(6% at 250 if going by 1% per 25% over 100).

Speed/Quickblade. I'd like to see just a little bit of +speed. Quickblade is nice, although kind of ironic that it requires 400 speed to unlock the goodness, in a class that gets 0 speed buffs and so-so equipment speed-wise(Technically, probably get the best +speed gear, but I'd prefer that equipment not be the main direct component of stat bonuses, so race+class{with race/eq boosts to stat-buffing ability} it is). Then again, we have plenty of fighters with +speed(only other fighter class without +speed that I can think of who look like they ought to are Valkyries. Barbarians naturally shouldn't be getting +speed). Ideally, bruiser classes with high +damage shouldn't get as much +speed(buffs giving bonus attacks are another thing altogether), while those with lower damage per hit should. This is partially mitigated by excessive +hit translating into +damage, although not that much.

More to come as I think of it or you guys bring it up.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:17 AM
Syveril Syveril is offline
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I will concede that pointing to other classes and saying they have it is sort of weak. But I stand by the skills I suggested; I believe for balance, playability, and stylistic reasons, ninjas should get

1. redirect - ninjas should be known for their deadly accuracy, not for being unable to hit the target of their choosing. In fact, I believe ninjas should get something better than redirect; something with less lag.
2. trail concealment - in terms of the various "hide" abilities, there are five categories, two of which do the same thing but operate in different spheres:
- blended
- cloak/invis
- sneak (unseen motion)
- tracklessness (trail concealment or winded passage)
In ninja movies, when have you seen ninja tracks all over the place? Isn't it crazy that ninjas don't have this? It totally doesn't affect their combat viability, but it's has a small role in the hide and seek of pk, and ninjas should be hard to track down. This is a style question, and I stand by my statement that ninjas deserve trail concealment, even if we were the only class to have it.
3. haste - this is a balance question and a style issue. If hurricane kick had normal lag of 2000, I wouldn't bring this up, but because it incurs greater lag than a round of attacks, it means that we're at a disadvantage running. Hurricane kick does more damage than skills like holy light and radiant strike of the guard, but then again you won't see us with a ton of extra stats and high defense/healing and hot +damage. It almost balances out, except that the extra lag negates the damage of hurricane kick (except for consistent 1-rounding). On top of that, I noticed in comparing running speed that ninjas tend to end fights with 1000 lag a lot more often than other classes. It shows up often when fighting mobs that last 2-3 rounds, and I believe has a significant impact on run speed, which is a major disadvantage.

Stylistically, it feels wrong to have ninjas be slower than other classes. Ninjas, sorcs, barbarians, monks and valkyries (although valkyries get 3 bonus attacks fully practiced), are the only classes without any speed bonuses. Monks suffer much of the same problems that ninjas do in terms of running and in terms of pk viability. Monks will always have a place in group pk thanks to temple touch, but their stances suffer from the same poor scaling as antei of formation.

Antei of Formation: I specifically avoided comparing infusion with antei, because one is the strongest subclass ability ever and awesomesauce, and one is available to all ninjas. The thing is, I think all "stances" are outdated. I think they need to be rebalanced to take into account the endurance penalty for using stances/in combat skills, and in light of increased battle lengths. Only certain fighter classes suffer from this lack, and I believe it to be a design oversight rather than deliberate balancing. I don't use antei of formation while running because it doesn't increase my run speed, not because I'm saving the prevent. You don't see marauders not using ephemeral discord of speed. You don't see witches not use witching frostband, or warlocks not using temporal gate, or poliirs not using radiant awakening. This is ridiculous and an obvious case of a need for rebalancing. If antei shouldn't be usable for running, then it should be awesome in pk like infuse. If it shouldn't be awesome like infuse (and I don't think it should be), then it needs to be usable for running. Right now it's sort of stupid; I feel like it's not useful over a 2 minute fight, it's only useful for converting some of your overall damage into up-front damage. It should add to your overall damage.

Non-ninja specific issues:
Also, do you agree that glancing pierce needs its prevention dropped to 10 seconds? It should be 15 seconds tops, and would be a slight boost to valkyries, ninjas and footpads only. I think in terms of the position it occupies in terms of running and pk, these are classes that deserve to use this kung fu more often.

Keiiken isn't a useful skill as is. It's shared by monks/warlocks/ninjas. What can be done with keiiken?

Last edited by Syveril; 11-19-2008 at 06:43 AM.
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  #8  
Old 11-19-2008, 12:33 PM
Fenulia Fenulia is offline
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The best I can suggest for keiiken is making it semi-automatic(as with critical/heroines' charge). Then again, I think that should be the case for all the "psionic blast" type attacks. However, I understand it would be kind of chaotic, with all spellcasters having at least one of them(although oddly enough, none with both mental blast and psychic shock), and Warlocks having both mental blast and mental tempest in addition to keiiken. As it stands now though, all the "mental-type" attacks are only "useful" when you're impaired. However, given how crappy their damage is(keiiken rolls from low hundreds to a couple thousand), even that is debatable. :|
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2008, 05:07 AM
Syveril Syveril is offline
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I'm not sure much of that is factually accurate. None of the mental attacks have had lag in years. They're all "kung fu" style attacks, that are used every time they're up given their high accuracy and damage.

The classes with the most mental attacks are warlocks and marauders. Whatever balancing occurs around "mental attacks" cannot be an overall buff; those are the last classes that need buffing.

Keiiken's damage is highly variable, averaging roughly 80% of a normal attack, with a 0.1% chance of dealing about 500% normal attack damage. The helpfile says the damage is based on wisdom, dexterity and speed, with accuracy being controlled by wisdom. My guess is that the stat contribution to keiiken damage is capped, as significant increases to all three of the damage stats fails to affect my keiiken damage.

Keiiken as an autonomous attack would be interesting, and might even be useful if the percentage could reach 100%
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:53 AM
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grimm grimm is offline
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Sure more buffs for warlocks. Yay and only us posting on this forum. Srsly let's close this thread. Nobody cares bout ninjas really.
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Last edited by grimm; 03-10-2011 at 02:47 AM.
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