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  #1  
Old 12-10-2010, 09:59 PM
Iron Iron is offline
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Default skill costs

In the modern era of nodeka, pools are relatively cheap and easy to come by. It doesn't take too much time or effort to run enough endurance/mana/spirit to run or PK without ever running out. The skills in the game are generally designed for a much smaller pool base. I'm sure some of you remember when running out of a pool was a common occurrence.

Should skill/spell costs be re-evaluated? I think the really powerful ones that are basically "I win" skills or the ones that radically change a battle (bleed, dreynan, full heal, fade, forge to name a few) should be changed to use a % (up to 50%) instead of a fixed number. If you use a skill that turns your opponent into a punching bag or quadruples your damage or makes you invulnerable, there should be a real cost. If your class has 3-4 of these and you use them all, you should run a real risk of running out of X pool before the fight is over. With people being able to ascend to multiple sub-classes (and multiple big skills/spells), this is much more relevant.

For regular skills (spammables, buffs, etc blah blah), maybe the cost to use should go up with training % (e.g. 200% training = 200% cost to use). For most skills/classes, that doesn't mean much as the most commonly used skills, such as spammables, generally don't have a high cost anyway.

The general idea here is to get beyond the "train 20k in pools and be done" and require at least some thought/risk that if you spam out all the uber-skills at one time, you run an actual risk of burning out through the course of a fight. At the very least, suffer the endurance penalty or the evasion/pool comparison penalty. It adds a bit of strategy instead of the "spam all" hotkey.

Iron
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2010, 02:37 AM
Fenulia Fenulia is offline
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Off-hand, the "Win" powers I know of are:

Page of Competence Turning/Forge of Magical Dampening(essentially the same thing, for different opponents). There is NO defense from them if you cannot leave the room, and you can't even remove them because they affect the room, rather than a player.
Passage of the Bleeding Moment/Dreynen Curse: The latter only slightly less so, unless you're somehow so weak that the HP damage portion kills you.
Sigil of Banishment: Not really relevant, but if your opponent is no longer around, it's technically a "win".
To a lesser extent: Spartan Grapple/Inharmonic Helix(being delayed for 4 rounds can make the difference between being able to lock someone if you don't have an instant lock, or even just trying to get up your defenses).
Waters of Enfeeblement:sure, there's a delay, but after that, it's gravy!)
Malignant Injury: Really hard to fight this one unless you are somehow a super dodger/evader/parrier. Or you have ridiculous levels of HP and/or HP healing. Otherwise, please take 10ks damage during the last 20s of the affect. WTF?
Bandit Tactic of Enmeshing: This one annoys to no end. It's one thing to be able to pin folks down, but for 5 minutes? And NPCs using it really makes it much worse(120% Confined Movement? I should be going in the opposite direction from the one I'm intending then!)

Really, anything that leaves you putting your thumb in your ass while you're waiting to be able to DO SOMETHING during PvP.

Other things that fall under "annoying, but not necessarily instant-win":
Mental Tiaran: Like Celestial Ray, an infinite-ammo ranged attack, but it ignores doors!
Broken Vorpal Dimension: 300 Quickblades/Collapsed Ellipses in 3 seconds! *exaggeration, but not by much*

The one thing many of the above have in common? The opponent doesn't have any "miss chance" or way of avoiding taking it. Under that criteria, I'd have included Mystic Fading/Strike of the Quiet Arts, but especially for the latter, most affects are far longer, and most preventions are far shorter, than their effectiveness/prevention.

Forgot to add the obvious: Death Gamble/Spellbound Death. Both have pool costs in the 10k range. Maybe to prevent abuse by keeping one's pools low(doubtful anyone would do so, for obvious reasons), the costs for some of the crazy things listed above should be "X flat value, or Y%, whichever is greater".

As far as I know, spellpool vs spellpool for Evasion comparisons rely on max value, rather than current. Or am I wrong?

Last edited by Fenulia; 12-20-2010 at 02:40 AM.
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  #3  
Old 12-23-2010, 06:21 PM
Iron Iron is offline
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Here are the ones that I can think of and why. There are probably others and I'm not going to suggest what % they should be at, that requires more intimate knowledge of the class and balancing it.

As Fenulia mentioned, most/all of these have no resistance/avoidance. Even the ones that are targeted are 100% and often leave your opponent standing there doing nothing for long periods of time.

(Consider the use of skill and spell to be interchangeable as to mean either/or)

Bleed/Dreynan: Arguably the 2 most powerful spells in the game. Not only do you remove your opponents ability to use skills, but with the endurance penalties, you give -25% hit/dam (which is not insignificant). Or you force everyone in the game to run much larger pools than they need. In addition, for Bleed at least, it doubles as a full heal. That is hugely powerful for a single spell.

Full Heal: Lets face it Fallads and Dajas are damn near impossible to kill if you can't stop them from casting or run them out of spirit/mana. Most of us don't have the first option. Putting full heal on a % would at least make the second a possibility. Stones are available to anybody. Getting down to mortally and then just resetting should be no small feat.

Fade/Silent Strike: Removing most/all of your opponents buffs is hugely powerful. Sure they may get their prevents back, but how many of those things can they reuse in combat and even if they can, they probably get 20+ seconds of buff lag to stand there and die.

Barrier Behest/Awakening of the Guard: "Neener neener neener you can't hurt me"/"I'm inveeeeeeencible". Enough said.

Forge: Has basically no affect on the barb, cripples any caster (not like barbs actually worry about any hitter).

Page: Not as effective as forge as it actually affects the wizard (no evasion, no unlimited sustain for pet), but still hugely powerful.

Spatha/Quiet Trident: forge/fade just for you! not as powerful, but still takes away your opponents ability to do anything.

Battle Learning: 40+ seconds where your opponent does not get a melee attack. Throw in that warlocks get battle lock (why?) and you get instant punching bag.

Constrict: Cut your opponents melee damage by 75% and double your damage. Turns any witch into a melee class and any melee class into a necro. I have yet to live long enough to see it wear off (40+ seconds).

Unearthly rapture: Cutting your opponents damage way down and then doing things like being hit for (10 for 10) for 50 (each) and countering (10 for 10) for 400 (each). Uhh YEAAAAH. I know they are underpowered in offense, but geskos hurt, you can't kill them and uhh overkill? And the damage goes up the closer they get to dead (just before they full heal).

Nefarious Combat Infusion: This is a lesser one. Can be a insanely powerful spell under the right circumstances, but very difficult to set up to reach the full potential of the spell.



Some others that would probably be minor candidates (and minor %s if done):
Waters of enfeeblement: (not as big of a deal due to the delay, but on top of everything else a witch gets, it could cause a little "pick and choose")
Silver Inferno: (much less so since it has been toned)
Bandit tactics of Enmeshing: (mostly due to the duration, prevents abuse)


There are probably some others that I am not thinking of at the moment. So feel free to remind me. In general, I don't think any generic damage/spammable should be subject to it. I think the cost for those should just scale with training %. The ones that I think should be subject to % cost are the ones that are generally considered OP or huge game changers. Where the use of one skill one time totally upsets the balance of a battle.



I don't agree with Fenulia on the following:

Tiaran: The doors thing sounds like a bug. Other than that, its just a damage skill and costs should scale with training.

Vorpal: Its another damage spell. Eating 10 of them between rounds sucks, but I can live with it. It shouldbe agg though. Every other room affect damage spell in the game is agg.

Malignant/Crit: I think these are fine. They are a footpads primary melee offense. However, IMO they should not leave an opponent with 1 hp. No class should be given a skill that allows for free RK of any coma player in a zone with agg mobs. I mean a footpad can RK someone in Ruushi, all they need is a dark merc (a level 10 mortal mob) to get a lucky kick, which even resisted, does 1 damage. I think these should stop at 1% instead of 1 hp. From a melee standpoint, even a player with 120k health would only be left with 1200 health. The footpad should be able to still kill the person. Just my 2 cents.
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  #4  
Old 12-24-2010, 12:27 PM
Iblis Iblis is offline
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Just for the record, my constrict lasts 19 seconds - so i'm not sure which witches you've been fighting that have a +40 second constrict (which would take about 800 con). Also it doesn't cut melee damage by 75% and double my damage - it cuts the targets stats by 50%.

This is.... wildly ridiculous on so many different levels.

And I also like how you've left out things like the defensive nojohr parries, riposte, nojohr fate, and so on.

Also you've both misinterpreted so many other skills (i.e. spartan grapple is an impairment, not a lag ability like inharmonic helix... i think you mean trial of aggression, AND barrier behest and awakening of the guard are specific defenses they do -not- block all forms of damage).

But back to the core question at hand, i.e. skill costs.

Sure a maxxed char with decent pools can use their arsenal pretty easily - but that's the way it has been engineered. The limiting factor is the prevents and some classes have it easier than others in that department.

Powerful abilities generally have longer prevents, and using them is not nearly as simple as 'spam all -> win'. Anyone who can afford to spam all and win was probably going to win the encounter anyway.

It is a nice idea, sure, to add more consideration to how people use skills. But you'll find that you end up with endless arguments as to what constitutes a 'powerful' ability.

-Iblis.
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2010, 05:15 AM
Iron Iron is offline
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Maybe it is constrict in combination with terrify that is overwhelming. Because there have been many a fight with you where I have gone from hitting you consistently for 250-300 to hitting you for sub 100 and you have gone from hitting for ~150 to hitting for 250-300 and all of that has lasted more than 20 seconds.... Ive counted rounds and 20 rounds of it is far greater than 19 seconds. You and I had a discussion about it after one of those fights because I was asking what in the world it was.

I agree with you on some of the points you made. Spartan grapple for example should not be one of those skills, it is just another impairment. I don't think riposte should be as it is far from being overwhelming. Maybe Nojohr Fate and the Defensive Noj parries should be added to the list. I am not against current or future Noj skills costing % pools. Maybe some things I listed should not be there at all. There are probably some other things that should be there. That is why I originally did not include a list, I was trying to avoid it beyond the super obvious. I think all of the most powerful skills should be evaluated.

The point is that there are some skills that completely turn the tide of a battle with the use of the single skill one time. Its not, spam out all your skills, or who has the better tactics, its one class has the better skill, or one class doesn't have one, or whoever happens to get lucky and get it off first.

Yes, those skills may have long prevent, but it doesn't change the fact that 1v1, the person with one of those skills can generally walk in and go "bang, I win". Most, but not all, of the skills listed, leave your opponent standing there with their thumb up their a$$ for extended periods of time waiting to die and in pretty much every case, there is 0 chance to avoid the affect.

I do not consider all of the "OP" skills to be equal in power. I do not think that they should all be treated equally as far as costing a % pool. If you look at a skill and think if used properly, it increases the odds of winning by 60-70%, then maybe it should cost 10-20%. If you look at a skill and think if used properly, it increases the odds of winning by 99%, then yeah, maybe it should cost 50+% of a pool to use regardless of the prevent time. I think there should also be a minimum cost for any % skill (1000 endurance or 5-50% whichever is greater).

Lets face it, a barb using forge against a caster (e.g. using properly).... that's pretty much in the 99% category. What if Forge and Fade both cost 51% of spirit? At least people would stand a chance to live long enough for battle lock to wear off. The barb can still Fade someone the very next tick (instead of having them on the same prevent), but after that, he isn't casting for a few ticks.

I also think it should be considered in relation to the power of the class and how the change would affect the class. Would it break the class entirely (e.g. is it their only survival method)? Is it needed to bring the class down to reality (e.g. full heal to give the possibility of a healer running out of mana/spirit)? Maybe some classes/skills don't need it or maybe they don't need it right now but will when future skills are implemented (including retrofitting existing skills when those future skills are implemented). If done, this should be avery careful process. Particularly when you consider skills since you encounter the endurance penalties (there is no equivalent for mana/spirit afaik).

Why should any class be given what is essentially a free PK, even if it is every 40 minutes? I mean the cost of some of these skills is almost laughable in comparison to the power (e.g. Battle Learning costs ~400 endurance). All I am saying is give them a real cost. Look at Antei of Formation, ~5k endurance. Now that's a real cost to use in comparison with the power. I didn't use it much as a Lernen because of the endurance penalties, it hurt. If there were a penalty to go with mana/spirit like there is for endurance, and really powerful spells came with big costs, people would pick and choose to use them a little more.

It's an idea for discussion. By adding a real cost to use them, it brings some of the "OP" skills down a little without entirely nerfing them into oblivion. It could in turn allow for lower prevention times too. This could also mean that more skills could be added in the future that are strong without the usual big cries of the skill being totally OP.

Slight tangent, but maybe mana/spirit could affect quick/nr like endurance does hit/dam where casters can get the bonus and hitters cannot and everybody gets the penalty. Since casters get more bonuses to quick/nr than hitters in general, the downside would affect them more just like the endurance penalty affects hitters more.

Another tangent, but once the code was in place for % cost skills, it could open up the possibility for new types of skills/spells for Whim to play with. For example 1-shot skills that drains 100% of a pool and does something proportionate or skills that that drain like 1% but goes off automatically each round, like a mini-kick/fireball or super dodge/evasion/parry that costs 1% per avoid. Things like that.

Last edited by Iron; 12-27-2010 at 05:25 AM.
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2010, 05:35 AM
Iblis Iblis is offline
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Okay let's compare a skill that increases your damage output by 50% for 10 seconds every 20 minutes.

And let's compare another that increases your damage output only by 5% but can be used constantly.

By your argument, the skill that provides that short 'boost' in damage should be penalized more because it is "battle winning" as per your claim. In truth though the skill that can be used constantly is far more powerful overall.

Also I don't know where you got your information about antei of formation but:

antei of formation [ ] [ 100 ] [ 1813 ] [ Stand - Fight ]

Also, while we're at it the other inherent imbalances are:

1. Most casters with 'powerful' skills have no way of keeping their targets in combat, unlike fighters with powerful skills.

2. Casters being dependent on spells for the bulk of their damage output are more affected by pool loss, unlike fighters.

-Iblis.
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Old 12-27-2010, 07:30 PM
Iron Iron is offline
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Sorry for misrepresenting the cost of Antei. It has been a while since I used it and I didn't have nodeka open at the time to look it up. I must have had much smaller pools back when I used it because I remembered it taking large chunks of my endurance. My bad.

Per your argument about casters being more dependent on spells that is true, but if, as Fenulia said, the evasion penalty is max vs max, casters suffer no penalty for being at 20% mana/spirit. Everyone suffers a penalty for being at 20% endurance (which affects hitters much more).

About something adding 50% for 10 seconds... is that really a skill that is all that powerful? If you have something that doubles your damage for 20 seconds though? Look at the costs for using Insanity/Havoc for barbs.


But if you look at the really powerful ones (probably the 3 biggest that come to my mind right away are bleed, forge, battle learning), those are basically bending your opponent over a barrel and having your way with them. You take away your opponents ability to do more than stand there and die. Forge and battle learning require a battle lock which both classes have. Bleed takes away fleeing by simply removing endurance as well as all skills/spells and giving -25% hit/dam.

With the ability to ascend now, how are we really going to be able to differentiate sub-classes moving forward? Personally, I would like to see most new skills going to specific sub-classes instead of going to the base classes. With that though, would likely be more powerful "defining" skills for the sub-class. That results in problems when people can have 2 and 3 of those at a time. Putting them all on the same prevent is counter to the whole idea of having multiple sub-classes. Having a big cost associated with them means that you have to choose to use them wisely as it weakens you in the immediate future and you may not be able to use your other big skill right away.

Maybe part of the overall solution to what I am suggesting is not to add a bonus/penalty for mana/spirit like there is for endurance, but to remove the endurance bonus/penalty structure. That does make it a bit more palatable to have skills that really drain you. Then at least you aren't helpless unless you actually run out.

It may seem like I am just bitching. In a way yes. In a way no. People have been bitching about bleed for years. Casters have been bitching about forge for a long time. In a convoluted way, I would like to see all of the classes have some really cool and powerful skills/spells. But I would like to see them have a steep cost to use. You can nuke the crap outa someone (or make yourself invincible or whatever), but you better hope it does the job, because it using that much power drains you and leaves you vulnerable.

It would add a whole new aspect to combat when you have 2 skills that cost 40-60% 3 that cost 15-30% and 5 that cost 5-10%. But you also have penalties associated with pool loss that you have to take into account (maybe) and still be able to maintain your regular staple of skills. The fact that casters rely on pools more than hitters should be taken into account so as not to drain them as quickly or to give their skills more power (as caster spammables are generally more powerful than hitter spammables).

I think it would add a whole new level of strategy to PvP. Even more so to big battles where things would become very strategic. One person who is very powerful could burn themselves out and become a sitting duck if they aren't smart.

In the short run, yes, it is picking on a select few. In the long run, I would really like to see it as part of a system that affects everyone. All of the (sub) classes would have skills that vary from the the staple of average buff/spammable to several of the somewhat strong (burst type, 50% for 10 seconds ) 5-10% cost, to a few of the strong 15-30% cost, and 1-2 40-60% cost skills.


You can't tell me that doesn't at least sound intriguing.
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Old 12-27-2010, 07:38 PM
Iron Iron is offline
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Yes the idea is evolving. Im not totally schizophrenic, just slightly ADD. Its an idea board .
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2010, 08:03 AM
Fenulia Fenulia is offline
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Sorry about the Spartan Grapple confusion. I was probably typing that part "Spartan Grapple/Inharmonic Helix" with regards to them being less "game-breaking" for the victims(compared to the bigger ones above), and then went into a tangent about the lag. Inharmonic Helix/Trial of Aggression are pretty bad in and of themselves, but it's really the combination of ToAgg and Spartan Grapple that can totally wipe the floor with the Barbarian's opponent. Combine that with Savage Assault giving a mini-bash every 5(?) rounds, on top of Bash proper, plus whatever else, you're not running from a Barbarian anytime soon. Especially if he faded you first so that you'd be even more vulnerable.

Silent Strike is specific to Mahoutsukai. Strike of the Quiet Arts is the generic Ninja version(presumably, an Ascended Maho/whatever will have 4 ways to fade you, which MIGHT be powerful, but nowhere near a Mordant Ruan/whatever whose generic fade is MUCH shorter in prevention, dunno about the Mordant specific's prevention)

Awakening of the Guard/Barrier Behest: Both block just about everything, as far as I know. Awakening of the Guard is in some ways more powerful, in that NR is used for just about every damage calculation in the game. Barrier Behest is more powerful in another way(up to 90{100?}% physical immunity and the same level of magic immunity), in that if you do more damage than the Poliir's Awakened NR, you will bypass the "tickling" phase, but the Barrier will always reduce it to 1. However, Barrier Behest can be bypassed by Black Magic Attacks(no idea if there's any other elemental type that is not covered by either Physical or Magical Immunity)

*Just about every "high damage" spammable lag move like hurricane kick/fireball/ice blade/etc. is a combo of up 5 mini-attacks, each of max 1k or so, hence the "tickling(5)" fireballs/hurricanes/what-have-you, as each mini-attack is reduced to 1(or low double/triple digits, in the case of fighting Awakening).

Riposte is really only a problem if you have Improved Parry at 100%(to bypass the "Will this even trigger?" step) and a very high % chance to trigger(on top of the Jerof race's stuff I guess). Also, limited to 1 Nojohr subclass. Unholy Rapture is for the whole class of that tier, if memory serves. Still, someone wielding either of them gets to play the classic bully-game of "Stop hitting yourself!"
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  #10  
Old 01-05-2011, 04:34 AM
Iron Iron is offline
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Riposte can also be countered even after it has been used. Riposte depends on a successful parry. Parry is blocked by any impairment. A simple bash and until they break the impairment, riposte stops.


*note: no idea if a high enhanced parry mysteriously gets around this restriction partially or fully, but for normal parry 1 trip and you are generally done riposting for the duration.

Last edited by Iron; 01-05-2011 at 04:36 AM. Reason: added note
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