PDA

View Full Version : Ninjas want better buff!


grimm
11-03-2008, 11:54 PM
It's great that ninjas got buffed in practices. But none of it is as good as what other classes are getting. Buffs in practices have make a few classes insane.

The new buff on hakanai shouten is great. But honestly who would use it with stun >100% and a weaker counterpart to whispering wind.

I say make whispering wind antei a spellup. Or on a different prevent. That would be the first step to making us ninjas happy!
________
Vaporizers (http://vaporizers.tv/)

Fenulia
11-19-2008, 02:11 AM
Unseen Motion: 1% Difficult to Hit per 10% over 100%. :(
Joufu's Arc: 1% more attack per 3% over 100%. Rolls over to the second attack once the first one hits 100% I think. Give it some +Dexterity at least? Even +1 per 5% over 100% might actually make a difference(in a world where other people regularly run around with +60 to single stats, or +30 each to multiple stats on single buffs).

grimm
11-19-2008, 02:51 AM
I think unseen motion increases every [6%] coz that's how i've been training.
You're right everyone's getting massive +stat bonus. What harm is it to increase our dex on joufu's arc as well.
________
VAAAPP VAPORIZER (http://essentialvaaappvaporizer.com)

Syveril
11-19-2008, 04:41 AM
First, a response to the previous comments:

I believe unseen motion gives a 1% difficult to hit every 6%. I agree that joufu's arc could use some bonus to dexterity with practice %. Or better yet, simply remove the cap on dexterity.

Here's my list of the spellups that Ninjas deserve:

1. trail concealment/winded passage. basically the same buff, and it's ridiculous that we don't have it.
2. flight of any kind. marauders have it. hunters have it. it doesn't even make sense that marauders have wings of the dragon. why was it moved from ninja to marauder in the first place?
3. haste. for two reasons: first, it's weird that ninjas of all classes don't have any speed buffs. secondly, we deserve more attacks, because we're shafted so hard on damage compared to every other fighter, save footpads. Why do we also have fewer attacks than other fighter classes?

Other suggestions for improving ninjas:

1. reduce prevention time for antei of the clouded mind. this ability has a limp ratio of uptime to downtime, and basically locks you out of pk for half an hour. It should provide a higher uptime/downtime ratio, as well as be much shorter, like a 9 minute up/2 minute down deal, reaching 0 minutes down at high constitutions.

2. antei of formation needs to last longer. Since antei of formation was first implemented, player health and the length of pk battles has increased a great deal. When you also consider the introduction of glacious stones, and the more recent hit/dam bonus lost when using too much endurance, antei of formation has become stupid. I don't always use antei of formation on long boss fights, because I'd rather not break my hit/dam bonus for a few rounds of extra attacks (that don't hit as hard since I lose my bonus), even with 28600 endurance. This is a ridiculous state of affairs.

Antei of formation needs to be extended dramatically, or else its endurance cost needs to be cut dramatically, or both need to be done moderately. The current state of antei of formation is that it's questionable to even use this ability. I certainly don't land all my attacks when I use it, which is pretty crazy considering that hakanai shouten + formation take me well over 800 dexterity and 400 +hit.

3. Ninjas deserve redirect. The only two fighter classes without redirect are footpads and ninjas, not coincidentally the two fighter classes with the most withdraws (unless you count eaststar khehusods). NEWFLASH: Battle locks have been in this game for years. It's time to give redirect to footpads and ninjas.

4. Ambush sucks. It needs to either go off autonomously along the lines of critical tactics/heroines charge to help replace the loss of SM, or else it should scale better. Before players were dealing 10K damage per charge and 5K damage on storm complexity and evasion stopped ambush most of the time, ambush was a decent, if difficult to use skill. Now, the average damage dealt by ambush in pk is less than simply opening with flowering spirit.

I would say the top three ninja fixes are:
1. Trail concealment
2. Redirect
3. Haste

grimm
11-19-2008, 05:13 AM
This is a response to Syveril's post.

Spells ninjas deserve?
1. Just because most melee classes have a skill doesn't mean all other classes need it.
Hunters don't have redirect you don't see them asking for it.
Barbs and poliirs don't have vanish you don't see them complaining. And if they were given vanish everyone would be complaining.
I believe we shouldn't be looking at what other classes have and then wanting them as well. This in fact makes class unique from one another.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How we should view is "are our skills are on par with other melee classes' skill". Does their main damage skill has a higher advantage then our main damage skill?

Another way to review our skills are the usefulness. Do we make the best use of skills we have, or are they obsolete.

"I'm all not for adding new skills just because other classes have it. i.e trail concealment and redirect."

2. But skills that used to be ours do puzzle me as well. Skills such as unka and wings of dragon. Why were they taken away from us in the first place? .But with said i think marauders still deserve it as well. They lack in spellups.

3. Now with haste. I don't know if i'm all up for it. Very debatable. Do we really need it? I think we need to be focusing on joufu's arc instead.
We need to focus on how to make our skills be on par with other classes skills. Everyone's getting massive boost. Higher +stats bonus where else we're still stuck 5years ago.


Improving Ninjas
1. I agree with syveril on lowering the prevent time for antei of the clouded mind. It really gimps us. I see the point why they're on the same prevent - fight or hide. But with such a high prevent on clouded mind, it's hard to strategize how we want to hide or fight. If we cloak we're gonna be gimped for so long and our only reliable damage skill can't be use if we choose to use the advantage.

Or maybe we can make it in away that it keeps us cloak as long as we do not initiate attack,spellup or till the uptime finishes. Keeping in mind it still has its long prevention time and on a different prevention as antei of formation. This will give more tactics for ninja to utilize.

2.Antei of formation isn't all that great if you want to compare it to infusion(althought it's on a different skill tier). But i guess the short prevent time makes up for it. Thus we can't rely solely on antei of formation , but a marauder could on infusion. I'm not up for changing it. I think it's fine as it is. So i suggest we start focusing on other skills we have.

Which leads back to my first post (sorry for the biaseness). Helping us gain more attack power.

3.And on the ambush note. I say leave it there. It does serve it's purpose.
________
SWED (http://smokeweedeveryday.org/)

Fenulia
11-19-2008, 06:00 AM
Ambush is...mediocre. It rocks when you're a mortal(few post-level 90 moves dont). Beyond that, once hp starts getting higher than about 10k, ambush steadily loses its use. Plus all the different ways to break it(or if the wrong person comes in first to break you out of it before the intended target). Second making it a mini-auto attack. "I'm a Drow, and even though I'm a Healer, I'm well-versed in the art of sneak-bitch-slapping you for 5k damage every 20 rounds." "I'm a *insert non-ambushing race* Ninja/Footpad, and even though I've spent almost my whole life honing my sneakiness, I'm unable to stick in the art of 5k damage sneak-bitch-slap between combat rounds." Yeah. Makes no sense to me. I say make it something you can access over 100%, and say, at 250%, it's at 5% chance to kick in(1% per 30% over 100). That makes it equal to Dark Elf, just behind Naj'rei Faehr and Veldruk. If you think that's too low, maybe every 25%(6% at "natural cap" of 250). Personally, I'd cap the racials at about 5-6%(Major), while allowing you to spend 1 million plats to surpass(6% at 250 if going by 1% per 25% over 100).

Speed/Quickblade. I'd like to see just a little bit of +speed. Quickblade is nice, although kind of ironic that it requires 400 speed to unlock the goodness, in a class that gets 0 speed buffs and so-so equipment speed-wise(Technically, probably get the best +speed gear, but I'd prefer that equipment not be the main direct component of stat bonuses, so race+class{with race/eq boosts to stat-buffing ability} it is). Then again, we have plenty of fighters with +speed(only other fighter class without +speed that I can think of who look like they ought to are Valkyries. Barbarians naturally shouldn't be getting +speed). Ideally, bruiser classes with high +damage shouldn't get as much +speed(buffs giving bonus attacks are another thing altogether), while those with lower damage per hit should. This is partially mitigated by excessive +hit translating into +damage, although not that much.

More to come as I think of it or you guys bring it up.

Syveril
11-19-2008, 06:17 AM
I will concede that pointing to other classes and saying they have it is sort of weak. But I stand by the skills I suggested; I believe for balance, playability, and stylistic reasons, ninjas should get

1. redirect - ninjas should be known for their deadly accuracy, not for being unable to hit the target of their choosing. In fact, I believe ninjas should get something better than redirect; something with less lag.
2. trail concealment - in terms of the various "hide" abilities, there are five categories, two of which do the same thing but operate in different spheres:
- blended
- cloak/invis
- sneak (unseen motion)
- tracklessness (trail concealment or winded passage)
In ninja movies, when have you seen ninja tracks all over the place? Isn't it crazy that ninjas don't have this? It totally doesn't affect their combat viability, but it's has a small role in the hide and seek of pk, and ninjas should be hard to track down. This is a style question, and I stand by my statement that ninjas deserve trail concealment, even if we were the only class to have it.
3. haste - this is a balance question and a style issue. If hurricane kick had normal lag of 2000, I wouldn't bring this up, but because it incurs greater lag than a round of attacks, it means that we're at a disadvantage running. Hurricane kick does more damage than skills like holy light and radiant strike of the guard, but then again you won't see us with a ton of extra stats and high defense/healing and hot +damage. It almost balances out, except that the extra lag negates the damage of hurricane kick (except for consistent 1-rounding). On top of that, I noticed in comparing running speed that ninjas tend to end fights with 1000 lag a lot more often than other classes. It shows up often when fighting mobs that last 2-3 rounds, and I believe has a significant impact on run speed, which is a major disadvantage.

Stylistically, it feels wrong to have ninjas be slower than other classes. Ninjas, sorcs, barbarians, monks and valkyries (although valkyries get 3 bonus attacks fully practiced), are the only classes without any speed bonuses. Monks suffer much of the same problems that ninjas do in terms of running and in terms of pk viability. Monks will always have a place in group pk thanks to temple touch, but their stances suffer from the same poor scaling as antei of formation.

Antei of Formation: I specifically avoided comparing infusion with antei, because one is the strongest subclass ability ever and awesomesauce, and one is available to all ninjas. The thing is, I think all "stances" are outdated. I think they need to be rebalanced to take into account the endurance penalty for using stances/in combat skills, and in light of increased battle lengths. Only certain fighter classes suffer from this lack, and I believe it to be a design oversight rather than deliberate balancing. I don't use antei of formation while running because it doesn't increase my run speed, not because I'm saving the prevent. You don't see marauders not using ephemeral discord of speed. You don't see witches not use witching frostband, or warlocks not using temporal gate, or poliirs not using radiant awakening. This is ridiculous and an obvious case of a need for rebalancing. If antei shouldn't be usable for running, then it should be awesome in pk like infuse. If it shouldn't be awesome like infuse (and I don't think it should be), then it needs to be usable for running. Right now it's sort of stupid; I feel like it's not useful over a 2 minute fight, it's only useful for converting some of your overall damage into up-front damage. It should add to your overall damage.

Non-ninja specific issues:
Also, do you agree that glancing pierce needs its prevention dropped to 10 seconds? It should be 15 seconds tops, and would be a slight boost to valkyries, ninjas and footpads only. I think in terms of the position it occupies in terms of running and pk, these are classes that deserve to use this kung fu more often.

Keiiken isn't a useful skill as is. It's shared by monks/warlocks/ninjas. What can be done with keiiken?

Fenulia
11-19-2008, 12:33 PM
The best I can suggest for keiiken is making it semi-automatic(as with critical/heroines' charge). Then again, I think that should be the case for all the "psionic blast" type attacks. However, I understand it would be kind of chaotic, with all spellcasters having at least one of them(although oddly enough, none with both mental blast and psychic shock), and Warlocks having both mental blast and mental tempest in addition to keiiken. As it stands now though, all the "mental-type" attacks are only "useful" when you're impaired. However, given how crappy their damage is(keiiken rolls from low hundreds to a couple thousand), even that is debatable. :|

Syveril
11-20-2008, 05:07 AM
I'm not sure much of that is factually accurate. None of the mental attacks have had lag in years. They're all "kung fu" style attacks, that are used every time they're up given their high accuracy and damage.

The classes with the most mental attacks are warlocks and marauders. Whatever balancing occurs around "mental attacks" cannot be an overall buff; those are the last classes that need buffing.

Keiiken's damage is highly variable, averaging roughly 80% of a normal attack, with a 0.1% chance of dealing about 500% normal attack damage. The helpfile says the damage is based on wisdom, dexterity and speed, with accuracy being controlled by wisdom. My guess is that the stat contribution to keiiken damage is capped, as significant increases to all three of the damage stats fails to affect my keiiken damage.

Keiiken as an autonomous attack would be interesting, and might even be useful if the percentage could reach 100%

grimm
11-20-2008, 06:53 AM
Sure more buffs for warlocks. Yay and only us posting on this forum. Srsly let's close this thread. Nobody cares bout ninjas really.
________
VOLCANO CLASSIC REVIEW (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/volcano)

Torment
11-20-2008, 08:09 PM
I care. Ninja's stink, but so do footpads, and witches, and all the other classes that are ridiculously outdated.

Syveril
11-21-2008, 12:12 AM
*shrug* Squeaky wheel gets the grease, and all. I cried about mental tiaran not going up/down for years. It's still a weak ability, but no one is going to consider buffing warlocks at this point in time.

I'd be happy to discuss other classes, but I think this thread is about ninjas, and there are like half a dozen ninjas on Nodeka. I can even name them all:

Izzral
Dios
Syveril
Vivec
Fenulia
Sly

grimm
11-21-2008, 04:00 AM
I'd be happy to discuss other classes, but I think this thread is about ninjas, and there are like half a dozen ninjas on Nodeka. I can even name them all:


Wow we're a popular crowd. NARUTO POWER V^_^
________
Vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/vaporizers)

grimm
11-21-2008, 11:08 PM
With every single class having a lock, some even with two, it's fair to say it's about time to let the two sneakiest class have a skill to break out of lock - Footpads and ninjas. I know this has been discussed about before but i thought i'd bring it up again.

Everyone knows footpads are as good as dead if they get locked into combat. As most of their primary dmg would need them not to be in combat. And ninjas with short burst damage, they'll suck if they can't flee and recuperate for the next line of attack.

I suggest all sub-class of both classes get an advance flee guarantee prevention that allows them to have flawless flees (with vanish being 100%).
1. This will ensure they break off from locks or impairments. As it is a guarantee prevention there are no stats comparison.
2. But a lag of 1000 is occured as he/she flees. This atleast gives sometime for people to catch them if they're paying attn (plus most people have chasers).
3. The prevention time should be of 2 locks prevention time so that they cannot break from 2 locks successfully.

On another note, certain sub-class should be made pro-flees as well
Two classes are:
Mist warrior and Nameless one

1. Mist warrior - Unka should be made able to break from locks and impairments. (I see why unka has been removed from all subclasses. I have no qualms with that anymore)
2. Nameless One - thieves' directional sidestep. So much for being super invis. Still doesn't help if they get locked.

Although two of this skills have been mention. If this feature would be added the prevention time should also be toned.
________
Mercedes-benz om615 specifications (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_OM615)

Fenulia
11-22-2008, 01:46 AM
Actually, Unka is still available for Shisou. As if that subclass needed any more buffing. Between Shisou's awesome agility/dexterity(somewhere in the 500s half the time, with amassed reflexes followed by hakanai shouten), and Meijin's "ignore NR" spell, the others are kind of in the doldrums(Maho is situationally useful, as when your opponent has a large number of short-term buffs and short-term preventions). Ijiwaru as I recall, had as much as +300 agility(or -300 if you failed?) for 5(20) seconds, with a 20 minute prevention. That was 5 years ago with Basara though, so may not be accurate. And of course, don't even get me started on Mist Warriors...

Edit: Oh yeah, and stun getting singled out as the one impairment to be blocked. I say let's just make them all !impairment, or else allow Hakanai Shouten to subtract from stun protection(eg, 173% stun protection, - 150% stun perfection=23% stun protection). Of course, this also means no more 100% stun perfection regardless of level/stats, but allows Ninja to use stun, if necessary. No other skill/spell in the game is specifically and completely blocked, as far as I know.

Sly
11-22-2008, 06:49 AM
I haven't been a ninja for to long... but from what I noticed...

POINTLESS SKILL:
Antei of hakanai shouten

example:
whispering wind antei 100%
antei of hakanai shouten 7%

...Do you see the difference? :P

No trackless movement????
I was wondering when I switched to ninja why they didn't have a trackless movement skill... doesn't make much since.

RUNNING:
I think that ninjas shouldn't be able to run that fast, because they are suppose to be mainly PK based....

No speed buffs:
Meh.... I like the haste idea

I kinda did this quick so its not detailed... but yeah

Fenulia
11-22-2008, 07:25 AM
Hakanai Shouten is supposed to make stun relevant in combat. Unfortunately, the +hit/-hit it provides is not quite enough to make up the difference. Especially against Warlocks and anyone else with Stun protection/impairment invulnerability. I feel that anti-impairments need to be less either/or.

Trackless movement: Design decision. Seems like all the various "stealthy" classes(Footpads, Ninjas, Marauders, Hunters) lack in a single aspect. More, the less stealthy they are "supposed to be".

Below are the various aspects of "stealthiness":
Lack !distance magic(visit, port, who command): Hunters/Footpads
Lack cloak: Hunters(all but 1 sub), Marauders.
Lack unseen motion: Marauders.
Lack palm: Only Footpads and Marauders have this. Ninjas and Shadow Tholecs can kind of accomplish this while cloaked.
Lack movement impairment(Enmesh, North Wind): Ninjas, Marauders.
Lack tracking skill(Hunt/Shadow/Shi-ku): Marauders
Lack ambush: Marauders
Lack trackless movement: Ninjas

What's up with Marauders anyways? They're not exactly stealthy, not exactly fightery, but superior to Ninja overall. Seems like 2 classes trying to fill the same niche.

Anyways, the only use I've found for leaving tracks behind is to lead people into an ambush, but as has been reiterated multiple times, ambush just becomes irrelevant the further up the HP ladder you go. About the same as banded smiting, actually.

grimm
11-23-2008, 12:34 AM
Hakanai Shouten is supposed to make stun relevant in combat. Unfortunately, the +hit/-hit it provides is not quite enough to make up the difference. Especially against Warlocks and anyone else with Stun protection/impairment invulnerability. I feel that anti-impairments need to be less either/or.
I agree on you with that. Make shouten possible to break through !stun & !impairement. It's only like 3 stun rounds.

Trackless movement: Design decision. Seems like all the various "stealthy" classes(Footpads, Ninjas, Marauders, Hunters) lack in a single aspect. More, the less stealthy they are "supposed to be".

Below are the various aspects of "stealthiness":
Lack !distance magic(visit, port, who command): Hunters/Footpads
Lack cloak: Hunters(all but 1 sub), Marauders.
Lack unseen motion: Marauders.
Lack palm: Only Footpads and Marauders have this. Ninjas and Shadow Tholecs can kind of accomplish this while cloaked.
Lack movement impairment(Enmesh, North Wind): Ninjas, Marauders.
Lack tracking skill(Hunt/Shadow/Shi-ku): Marauders
Lack ambush: Marauders
Lack trackless movement: Ninjas
I'm not following why you've posted all that above. Are you saying all those class should get the same skills? Seriously then we should just wipe all them classes and make one just called stealh-master....

Anyways, the only use I've found for leaving tracks behind is to lead people into an ambush, but as has been reiterated multiple times, ambush just becomes irrelevant the further up the HP ladder you go. About the same as banded smiting, actually.
Have you ever been chased before or try to catch a hunter? It's more than just ambush. You don't know how useful it is yet.
________
VERMONT MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES (http://vermont.dispensaries.org/)

Fenulia
11-23-2008, 02:07 AM
The list was mostly just to show that it's possible that Nijlo consciously chose for each class to be unable to do one aspect of stealth(or more). Also to show where each class lacks.

Syveril
11-23-2008, 06:03 PM
Lack palm: Only Footpads and Marauders have this. Ninjas and Shadow Tholecs can kind of accomplish this while cloaked.No. Palm is palm, cloak is irrelevant.

About the same as banded smiting, actually.It's interesting how well skills like ishtl's thrashing and charge continue to be relevant, making barbarians continue to be a strong class choice, whereas so many of our skills are outdated.

Fenulia
11-24-2008, 10:52 AM
I meant that while cloaked, we can sort of accomplish the "something's missing, but there was no indication". Not quite the same as Palm, I agree.

I'd still like to see Ninjas and Footies get some kind of lock picking ability. Why should locked doors only be breakable? Smacks of bias.:(

Whim
11-24-2008, 07:06 PM
Sure more buffs for warlocks. Yay and only us posting on this forum. Srsly let's close this thread. Nobody cares bout ninjas really.

Really?

Sheesh.

grimm
11-24-2008, 08:57 PM
Really?

Sheesh.

wow.....suddenly there was a stream of light warming up my pale face! Maybe all hope's not lost hey?
________
Territory (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Territory)

Fenulia
11-25-2008, 09:59 AM
I'm kind of extremely busy IRL these next few weeks, so can only provide input every other day, but if Whim's willing to thrash out something with us, I'd be more than happy to put in the hours(when I'm available. The days I am are beyond my control).

Fenulia
11-30-2008, 08:36 AM
Wow, this thread died without me? Or because of me? :(

Anyways, regarding the individual subclasses:

Meijin: Used to have nothing, now one of the best(Half NR works on everything, right?)
Shisou: Antei of Formation, but for agility, and better up/down ratio. With the change to Hakanai Shouten, this gets ridiculous pretty quickly. Only the cost keeps it in check(barely).
Mahoutsukai: Useful vs anyone relying on buffs. But given how long fights last these days, even with battle-lock, someone could still step out long enough to rebuff and get back in the fight before the prevention is up.
Mist Warrior: I shouldn't even have to mention why this is crappy. Upgraded Speedwalk !worth unique skill slot.
Ijiwaru Joufu: Like Shisou, but suckier. Honestly, the last time I saw one of these, it was Basara, half a decade ago. At 5 seconds of intense pleasure(or pain), with some 20 minutes of prevention, it's no wonder he stopped playing(or changed name/class).

Summary: Unka to be spread among all the subs. Amassed Reflexes, I see as more suited for being a general buff for all(no idea what to give Shisou in replacement). Ijiwaru: Needs total overhaul. Mist Warrior: Something other than CSS would be nice.

Syveril
11-30-2008, 08:57 AM
Wow, this thread died without me? Or because of me? :(

Anyways, regarding the individual subclasses:

Meijin: Used to have nothing, now one of the best(Half NR works on everything, right?)It's full NR. It's one of the best for pk, the only offensive subclass ability.
Shisou: Antei of Formation, but for agility, and better up/down ratio. With the change to Hakanai Shouten, this gets ridiculous pretty quickly. Only the cost keeps it in check(barely).Here, you appear to be talking out of your ass.
1. The cost is prohibitive for anything outside of pk.
2. We don't use hakanai shouten that much. We're prevented 21 minutes at a time from whispering wind.
3. With 320 base wisdom (yes, I stoned that shiz), I'm pulling maybe an extra 15-20 dexterity from antei of hakanai shouten. That's hardly "gets ridiculous pretty quickly".

Amassed is an agility boost up slightly less than half the time if you're willing to burn the endurance. It's hardly a game-breaking amount of agility since it's tied to wisdom. If it were tied to dexterity, I'd be impressed. It's not.
Mahoutsukai: Useful vs anyone relying on buffs. But given how long fights last these days, even with battle-lock, someone could still step out long enough to rebuff and get back in the fight before the prevention is up.This was good even before the battle locks. If someone can step out long enough to rebuff, either you're dealing with multiple opponents or you've messed up.
Mist Warrior: I shouldn't even have to mention why this is crappy. Upgraded Speedwalk !worth unique skill slot.The mist thing is a toy. If it were for a class without regional deception (like warlock), it'd be better, but I've seen one of the best players using this ability, and I'll agree that it appears to be more entertaining than useful. Worth pointing out is that mist warriors, like shisou, have access to unka. Unka isn't huge, especially with the ubiquity of battle locks, but it's still something.
Ijiwaru Joufu: Like Shisou, but suckier. Honestly, the last time I saw one of these, it was Basara, half a decade ago. At 5 seconds of intense pleasure(or pain), with some 20 minutes of prevention, it's no wonder he stopped playing(or changed name/class). I don't think he quite just because his subclass sucked. That's what changing subclasses is for. I'll agree that this subclass is made of tragic.

Summary: Unka to be spread among all the subs. Amassed Reflexes, I see as more suited for being a general buff for all(no idea what to give Shisou in replacement). Ijiwaru: Needs total overhaul. Mist Warrior: Something other than CSS would be nice.Given your recommendations, it doesn't make any sense that you haven't gone Shisou. Seriously, I don't get it. Your ability sucks, you think amassed is a godsend, try it for yourself.

I don't think unka being spread among the subclasses is a great answer, but blurred movement really needs to stop sucking so bad. It has a flat 50% failure rate, which is -terrible- on a class with vanish.

I think we have to remember that most classes don't have fleshed out subclasses. Monk subclasses, for example, are in worse shape. Suggestions are helpful for future reference, perhaps, but I think best brought up in the context of a review, as I doubt either dev would consider fixing up subclasses as a high priority.

I don't remember N ever doing a substantial subclass overhaul; other things have always come up and there have been piecemeal fixes at most. So my guess is that he isn't directing his focus in this area yet. I personally consider overall class fixes and balance more pressing than subclass issues.

tl;dr version - It's 3 sun stones, cough it up.

Fenulia
11-30-2008, 09:12 AM
*shrug* The agility thing only really gets me because it seems like unseen motion and regional both rely on agility(and not on dexterity).

The last time he "overhauled" subclasses was to brag that every subclass had a unique ability(even if many of those who had unique abilities before then were starting to show just how dated their designs were, eg. Ijiwaru and Mist).

Syveril
11-30-2008, 10:30 AM
*shrug* The agility thing only really gets me because it seems like unseen motion and regional both rely on agility(and not on dexterity).By the time you're a major remort, your unseen motion is 100%. The extra agility is irrelevant for that purpose. Regional deception has a very large int/wis component, and while I do use amassed for spelling up with regional deception, the difference is 6%. The actual benefit is small. Measurable, and I like the feel, but it's not incredible.

I'm not really sure why regional deception is so inferor to stealth and hunter's stealth, whatever it's called. (hunter's versions of the same ability as other classes offends me the point where I can't be bothered to look them up.)

Fenulia
11-30-2008, 12:00 PM
When I started out, Ninjas looked like what would happen if you mashed together Monks and Footpads(and gave them the weaker versions of the parent classes' skills). Now it seems like Hunters are going the same route, but stronger rather than weaker. Of course, it also helps their case that they have a ridiculously large list of buffs(taking the better part of half a minute to spell-up completely).

Gideous
11-30-2008, 03:10 PM
I would forward this to Whim and/or Nijlo. Some good ideas in here that might get some attention.

Whim
11-30-2008, 10:13 PM
I would forward this to Whim and/or Nijlo. Some good ideas in here that might get some attention.

I check these forums periodically, so I'll see anything that pops up as long as it's reasonably visible. =)

The "really?" comment I made was more of a snarky response to the "more buffs for locks, nobody cares about ninjas just delete us" stuff. It's a pretty ridiculous statement, and the problem with that kind of navelgazing (even if it's potentially just tongue in cheek) is that the momentum of general opinion loves to pick up on that kind of negativity and feed on itself until it becomes an "internet truth".

- strong +dex component added to Hakanai Shouten
- hurricane kick and au-sem-mao scaling greatly improved
- additional anti-dodge/parry benefits to high mastery hurricane kick/au-sem-mao
- added buff to unseen motion with greater potential than many other post-100% buffs
- fixes to impairment scaling to bring meaning back to impairments
- fixes to impairment stat assignment so that ubiquitously high willpower doesn't impact all impairments
- quickblade boost

... in just the four or five months since I've been coding new features. I'm not saying those are the be-all and end-all fixes to ninja, but seriously - come on. =)

If I seem a little reactionary to this kind of negative statement, it's only because I have to wade through a metric ton of it with every change I make. The thing is, not all negative statements are unconstructive; there are many truly insightful, well-thought out rebuttals to my changes which I honestly appreciate. Those are the rebuttals which tend to lead to future improvements - for example, the analysis one player recently sent me regarding resists. (To paraphrase and summarize: "In your last pass at race rebalancing, I think you laid on the magical/elemental resists too thickly. This might be an overlooked reason as to why sorc/witch feel pretty weak even with other buffs to them. For example, here is a breakdown of all of the magical/elemental resists across each race...") That is GOOD STUFF. It's calm and rational, it has research and examples behind it, and it doesn't presume to judge a system based on personal bias or preconceived notions without hands-on testing or related live examples. Everything else, unfortunately, just takes up valuable time I could be using for more productive purposes. =)

Syveril
11-30-2008, 11:56 PM
mmm okay I want to make a post in the spirit of good discussion, but I'll move it over the suggestions. http://www.nodeka411.net/forum/showthread.php?p=582#post582

Syveril
12-01-2008, 12:18 AM
- strong +dex component added to Hakanai Shouten
- hurricane kick and au-sem-mao scaling greatly improved
- additional anti-dodge/parry benefits to high mastery hurricane kick/au-sem-mao
- added buff to unseen motion with greater potential than many other post-100% buffs
- fixes to impairment scaling to bring meaning back to impairments
- fixes to impairment stat assignment so that ubiquitously high willpower doesn't impact all impairments
- quickblade boost
Thanks, btw. The improvements so far have made a big difference.

While I'm personally in a position of being completely underwhelmed by the power of unseen motion (it WOULD be awesome at 600%, but I'm looking at an investment I can't even afford for mediocre returns at 250% -- yes, I realize this is a personal statement and not representative of the ability generally or my class as a whole), the overall improvement to hurricane kick and au-sem-mao have been a god-send.

The anti dodge/parry I'm not really looking forward to, as I'm rarely dodged or parried anyway if I'm running around with tons of dex. What I see is a ton of evasions, which... yeah. I will end up practicing hk/asm for the damage boost, but right now (personally), evasion's the sticking point in offense for me. I do have problems with NR, and sometimes with landing attacks (for serious, I'm tired of landing 9 attacks out of 21 with formation running -- talk about an ability not keeping up), but I see that there's a subclass that bypasses NR, and nothing to be helped about evasion.

I do still feel that stun feels a little weak (landing full stuns, but not landing subsequent attacks or preventing very many attacks from victim), but I think a large part of that is I'm unable to overcome difficult to hit and evasion. One of the largest sources of frustration is that there's no visible way to overcome this... but at the same time maybe I'm just not meant to hit. If I had mesh and throw, that might make up for lack of combat ability, but it's the lack of a direction to grow in that creates the greatest urge to squeak about my class.

I think it's why we keep asking for more abilities: there's not a lot of room for growth in a ninja character... the mud has outgrown a ninja's strengths, and it would be nice to have a more interesting playstyle. The more battle locking occurs, the more boring the play is. A poliir makes more decisions in combat than a ninja does. I basically spam stun. It's sort of boring. There's no setup for the kill, no strike and vanish into the shadows, no crippling someone with poison and fleeing, just hope that stun will work better. There's no layering defense, choosing between offensive and defensive moves, uproot(!), impairing movement, it's just... I don't like the feel of this class anymore, but I always get the sense that it's almost there. That's why I care. If I couldn't imagine what some added utility would feel like on this class, I would already be another class.

Does that make sense? This sounds too much like a blog post already. Anyway, thanks to Whim for the reviews so far, and I look forward to more great changes whenever W and N have the time. Everytime something changes, I feel like we're living in exciting times.

Fenulia
12-02-2008, 05:10 AM
I love the changes to Hurricane/ASM. Still a little whiffy, but I suspect with more pracs(and especially PI) they should be working like mini-fireballs again.

Unseen Motion+Difficult to Hit: Actually, I think it's at 700%(100% base, then +1% DTH per 6% over that) that it will max out.:p

Stun: Yeah, it does have that feeling of being "left behind". Especially when 2 out of the 4 classes with stepped impairment get instant versions. The only reason I keep bringing this up is that it does have relevance with regards to being able to land all your preventions and/or 1 or 2 lag moves during the period when the opponent is impaired. Admittedly, it's less relevant in the same way as with all burst damage as HP goes up, but it's still a consideration. Sticking in antei of formation helps a little, but I doubt the extra hits/dex/overall damage per round makes up for the loss of endurance(and +hit) after that, compared to Monks(with stances!) and Valkyries(song of striking/ruin, whose combined cost is below formation, even with the cost of alluring grace thrown in). Eliminating the specific bias against stun(every other class with impairments can bypass anti-stun ala Wicked Fidelity.)

Speaking of Antei of Formation, I wouldn't mind seeing it get a much lower prevention. The sheer endurance cost of it means only someone approaching 50k endurance would be able to keep spamming it without losing hit/dam.

1813*20=36260. This is the minimum amount of total endurance(36260) you need before you can regenerate it back in one minute(or in other words, if the prevention is reduced to the same length as hakanai shouten). At that size, your HP is probably at or about 50k as well, so the fights would be lasting long enough to spam it maybe 3 times at most(compared to maybe once at the start, and a second time, if you got lucky with time-bending, at the current prevention time). If you throw in Flowering Spirit as well, that adds another 11840 to the amount of endurance you need(total 48100!) before you can spam both and regenerate the same in the tick(in combat).

Also, if I calculated correctly, you'd need over 10 million endurance before hitting the +15 hit/dam cap anyways.

Quickblade: I'll stop bitching about the speed requirement for double hits for now. Could we lower the prevention on this? A Ninja seldom gets into mass fights anyway(NR too low, even good quickness still lets some hits through), so between the endurance cost and the potential health hazards, only a bigger ninja(10k or more endurance, 30k or more HP) would use this to run, and it would improve their running speed by allowing them to engage multiple targets, as well as damaging them(and if you can't kill more than half the enemies hit within 60 seconds, half of the damage is usually regenerated anyways).

Summary for the tl;dr crowd: Lowering prevention on Formation and Quickblade only produces self-correcting "problems"(ie, nobody small would abuse them, especially seeing as they're major remort moves, so you really shouldn't be that small when you can use them), and makes larger majors more relevant/useful in a fight(with maximum endurance to spam formation+flowering, and maybe quickblade if nothing bigger than your current opponent is in the room), as well as upping their running speed. Stun needs tweaks.

grimm
01-09-2009, 06:41 AM
Can we trade physical intens for enhanced dmg please?
________
KLONOPIN REHAB ADVICE (http://www.rehab-forum.com/klonopin-rehab/)

Odinn
01-12-2009, 12:59 AM
I think that ninjas could probably use an auto attack that always lands(except evasion? ) while doing some damage it would also add a -Nr affect that could stack to X number and then increase with training.

Since ninja's are ninja's and should be the best at finding weakness' wouldn't it make sense if they did more damage over time?

It could even play into flanking with a prevention ability allowing the ninja to make the opponent easier to flank.

To me ninjas should have lots of attacks, high accuracy and funky kungfus.

grimm
01-21-2009, 09:56 PM
I don't ask for much, and again we've been requesting this for ages:


Shorter prevention on antei of formation (balances out the ridiculous endurance toll)
Have whispering wind on a different prevention than hakanai shouten
Joufu's arc does something other than capping at 100% for both attacks
Yeah and we get trail concealment and marauders lose it :P


Once we get these i'll be happy with ninjas....i will srsly.


and why aren't there any skills that ignore evasion. whyyy whyyy!
________
STARCRAFT II REPLAYS (http://screplays.com/replays)

Fenulia
02-12-2009, 04:57 PM
According to Dios, Joufu's Arc apparently does give +Dexterity. {3*(100-72)+3*(100-72)+3}=171 points in. As in you have to hit Aug 21 before you can get 271% Joufu's Arc and finally get +37 Dexterity. Quite frankly, in a game where certain classes *cough Mjols, Jakaens* frequently run around with well over +50 each to multiple stats, having Joufu's Arc cap at +36 Dexterity(barring Augment 20!) is, if you'll pardon my French, bullshit. Couple that with Convergence of Balance(around +20 Agility, +4 more than that for +hit), and Shadow Cast(+Quickness=Willpower/10), yeah. Then again, the latter 2 are shared with Marauders and Necromancers respectively, both of whom tend to get much better mileage out of them. It could be argued that antei of formation gives 150 Dex, and (the new)hakanai shouten another 100+, but that's some 10 rounds, maximum. Ninjas just don't have much choice beyond that. Stun(which fails a lot in PVP even with +Dex, unless you have AOHS on), or Hurricane/Au-sem-mao, neither of which does particularly grand damage unless you're pracced out the wazoo(and even then, probably miss a crapload in PVP).

Semi-related request: End the blatant bias against Stun. No other impairment gets singled out for immunity. If we're going to have people running around with stun immunity, stun perfection should work as a counter(subtract value of stun perfection from value of stun immunity to get actual % chance to avoid being stunned). Of course, this means AOHS needs to stop giving a flat +100%, but I can live with that if it means people stop yawning when I try to stun them. :P

Hex
02-12-2009, 09:46 PM
I do agree with Fenulia, and not just in regard to ninja's. It does seem like a few classes benefit from huge stat buffs, while other are left behind.

Gideous
02-17-2009, 01:49 PM
I heard you can get 271% at aug-5.

Fenulia
02-18-2009, 11:29 AM
According to the help file, you only get +1% over 250% for every augment. So unless that file needs updating, that's aug-21 to get to 271%. So 10+20+3=33 sun stones. Assuming you're right though, someone needs to fix that help file so it stops being misleading. :P

Anyways, all that, for +1 Dexterity to a skill that should not have been capped at less than half the natural limit for the stat it uses when invoking. I'm hard-pressed to think of any other skill or spell that gets capped at such a low point(144 Intellect for maximum Joufu's Arc without pracs, for those who don't remember).

Odinn
02-19-2009, 12:00 AM
According to the help file, you only get +1% over 250% for every augment. So unless that file needs updating, that's aug-21 to get to 271%. So 10+20+3=33 sun stones. Assuming you're right though, someone needs to fix that help file so it stops being misleading. :P

Anyways, all that, for +1 Dexterity to a skill that should not have been capped at less than half the natural limit for the stat it uses when invoking. I'm hard-pressed to think of any other skill or spell that gets capped at such a low point(144 Intellect for maximum Joufu's Arc without pracs, for those who don't remember).

With the advent of Demigod the cap is now 605% for all abilities. So now it is 5% per augment. It was in the MOTD.

grimm
05-19-2009, 02:17 PM
bumping this thread again.

There has been some updates on ninja. And it seems to be picking up very well.
the new shadow cast and striking from the shadow seems promising. If both works together it might make ninjas a choice class again.

That being said i'd still like to see a few other changes

Antei of Hakanai Shouten (:edit sorry misstype the skill:):
lots of qualms with this skill.
firstly the up rate and prevent rate is to miniscule. And to share the same prevent with one of our important offensive+defensive skill-whispering wind antei is a pain.
the +dex from quickness is not all that convincing.

What i like to see fix for this is put it on a seperate prevention, a little more uptime and maybe higher prevent time, +dex and +dmg from quickness.
Adding to that instead of 100% perfect stun, why not make it 100% unable to be block by nasty invincible to impairment.. that thing is such a killer to us.


Another qualm is with watermark of binshou. The balance is flawed. With high willpower i'm still failing miserably when i need it. I'm not sure whats the mechanism as there doesn't seem to be a favour towards success.

If that's the case, give us higher benefits to actually want to take the gamble. Maybe extra affects to it. Improve dodge + faerie fire + dmg or something.

If you want to keep the stats as it is, please make it lean more to success than failure.

That's about it.
________
SUZUKI GT750 SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_GT750)

Fenulia
05-20-2009, 11:54 PM
On the understanding that Ninja is supposed to be a "burst" class, Hakanai Shouten is currently "fine" as is, beyond the sharing prevention with Whispering Wind. Speaking of which, a mortal Barbarian using Ruan Strategy(admittedly, at a little over 10% health, and only 22 Willpower) can achieve almost the same amount of +Hit/Quickness as a major remort Ninja's Whispering Wind(at about 300 Wisdom).

Ruan Strategy: +19Hit/+19 Quickness
Whispering Wind: +18 Hit/+23 Quickness

Admittedly, the Barbarian's duration is pretty short(3 minutes or so), but here's the important bit: They can keep it up pretty much non-stop(although they will need to find some way to stay alive at low HP just long enough to buff, then heal up again and drop HP just before putting up another instance). Whereas if you catch a Ninja in the 2 minutes where whispering wind has just dropped, they're denied both offense and defense.

PS. Ijiwaru and Mist Warrior totally need new stuff. Just haven't been able to think of anything yet.

Odinn
05-21-2009, 02:25 AM
On the understanding that Ninja is supposed to be a "burst" class, Hakanai Shouten is currently "fine" as is, beyond the sharing prevention with Whispering Wind. Speaking of which, a mortal Barbarian using Ruan Strategy(admittedly, at a little over 10% health, and only 22 Willpower) can achieve almost the same amount of +Hit/Quickness as a major remort Ninja's Whispering Wind(at about 300 Wisdom).

Ruan Strategy: +19Hit/+19 Quickness
Whispering Wind: +18 Hit/+23 Quickness

Admittedly, the Barbarian's duration is pretty short(3 minutes or so), but here's the important bit: They can keep it up pretty much non-stop(although they will need to find some way to stay alive at low HP just long enough to buff, then heal up again and drop HP just before putting up another instance). Whereas if you catch a Ninja in the 2 minutes where whispering wind has just dropped, they're denied both offense and defense.

PS. Ijiwaru and Mist Warrior totally need new stuff. Just haven't been able to think of anything yet.

There are multiple affects for barbs besides quickness and hit.

Fenulia
05-23-2009, 02:05 PM
I realise there are other options besides +hit/quick for Ruan Strategy. Just pointing out that the value for a mortal Barbarian was enough to rival Whispering Wind Antei on Fenulia, which kind of underscores the point that Ninjas haven't really had much love lately, apart from the few over 100% things that most new/small players wouldn't have any idea of and just makes them wonder which one to train first(for newbies: Physical Intensification is pretty much THE thing to max out first, since killing faster=more gold=more practices for the rest).

Odinn
05-23-2009, 05:25 PM
I realise there are other options besides +hit/quick for Ruan Strategy. Just pointing out that the value for a mortal Barbarian was enough to rival Whispering Wind Antei on Fenulia, which kind of underscores the point that Ninjas haven't really had much love lately, apart from the few over 100% things that most new/small players wouldn't have any idea of and just makes them wonder which one to train first(for newbies: Physical Intensification is pretty much THE thing to max out first, since killing faster=more gold=more practices for the rest).

Well atleast now if you practice hurricane kick and au-sem-mao to 500% you will get the full benefit unlike some other ninjas :)

Fenulia
05-26-2009, 02:01 AM
Well atleast now if you practice hurricane kick and au-sem-mao to 500% you will get the full benefit unlike some other ninjas :)

Not entirely true either. Considering the sheer amount of practices needed to reach 500 % in both skills(to say nothing of the augment cost, and endurance, in the case of Au), coupled with the "new" cap of 10 practices per level up regardless of Int/Wis, it would probably still be more cost-effective for them to do PI first, which would then be itself multiplied on every mini-attack in the Hurricane/Au.